THE ZERG and Family Matters

After playing WAR for awhile and leaving because of game problems, I came back a couple of months ago as I had heard things had improved. They have in some areas but have only gotten worse in others. Let me explain. MY idea of fun is NOT running in a
zerg of multiple wbs pushing IC at least every other day and sometimes as much twice a day. For one thing, as we have discussed,it is just not fun if you are 40/40ish or lower t4 and can't really contribute much.

Also my vid card died a couple of months ago and being an older/disabled person have not been able to replace it yet so have beenplaying on the built-in chipset, and when you get that many wbs it is nigh impossible to move with the zerg.

I prefer doing things in smaller, more fun, 'family' groups. However I think THE ZERG (as it has become) has trumped other things including 'family' in this game. For one thing, when THE ZERG is in motion, you are not going to have other t4 activities to speak of as most everyone wants to be in the zerg.

Anyway I was running with the zerg this afternoon (cause there was nothing else t4 to do) in a not too bad pug, when one of the Gaiscioch leaders announced he was starting a Gaiscioch/alliance wb and to send a tell if interested. Anyway I thought at least maybe this will be more fun and/or tolerable in a 'family' wb. So within 2 minutes of the announcement I quit my wb and sent a tell. Five minutes later I still had not
gotten a reply so I sent another. (I know how its easy to miss one tell if you have a lot of them or are afk etc). Anyway over the course of the next 30ish minutes I sent a total of 5 tells to this leader, with nary a reply to any of them. I also inquired in
/as and eventually in /Tuatha which he finally DID respond to, just as I was logging because I was tired of following the zerg soloand all the wbs were full. Now I have no clue the reasons .... maybe I am not 'leet' enough, but I would have appreciated a reply.

I have known and greatly admired Ben since the early days of DAoC and I KNOW 'family' has real meaning to him and I believe he knows it was the same with us in Roisin Dubh. Family is one of the things I loved about DAoC and is something that appealed to me regarding WAR. But if family is going to become secondary to THE ZERG and the 'end game festivities' then I will either just play my lower tier characters or maybe even leave when my sub is up next month. (After all there are places I can go and be ignored for free. LOL).

I'll certainly say that if this is what T4 is like, I wish I'd never outgrown T3. I'm "too little" to do what others are up to, and if I want to get bigger, I'm stuck PVE'ing solo? T4 raid nights last between 15 and 30 minutes before everyone is left to their own devices (oh, joy, more PVE!)? And this in a guild that promotes "family" and "fellowship"... if I feel this way, how much more so must others in less family-oriented guilds? I don't have a clue what the answer is (or if there is one), but I know I'm not having fun in T4... and I don't play games to not have fun. Maybe I'll just start deleting toons as they reach T4 and re-roll at T1 and start over again.

Faireach I am totally sorry about this and I apologize for my less than quick response back in game.. I was not aware as I was in a middle of a fight and moving very fast. Text was scrolling quite a bit. I was also entering stuff on wed site in real time. I sent you a tell after and you said you where not interested. Once again please keep sending a tell or message and I will get you in when I can. I was full most of the time after I opened it up to PUGS.. You should get on vent and let us know you know in if possible You are always welcome to join us BTW I am not leet. Greg

Faireach, we do try to do things together as a family, we try not to leave anyone out. The last 2 T4 trinty nights have not gone as planed for anyone. I know Dag rather lock zones and take keeps, and BOs with destro in the field, then bum rush IC. Dont lose heart young SM. I my self get tired of the zerg. Also it does get very fast pace in T4 so if Grego didnt see your tell, or something in alliance, its not that he dont want you, its cause of the chat goes by fast. We dont require vent, but it does help with comands on where we are going and what we are doing. I myself to night missed a tell sent to me cause i was on a ram. So I say dont lose heart.

Beetles I miss clicked and deleted your post by accident. Here it is again. "Not going to lie and I think many in T4 can agree that the last 3-4 days in T4 have been very VERY strange. Rapid pushes towards both cities are happening so fast that there is nothing opposition can really do. T4 raid leaders take a look at something too, during this mad rush of zone caps (including ones in which we are going against the underdog system)have you noticed that the PVE bars have been capped out as soon as the area is available. And that the PVE caps are carrying over from zone to zone. Now this may not seem like much but most of the times when Order has been stalled its been by that last pesky point and coems down to SCs, but this last week with PVE being capped fromteh get go its literally been capping both keeps and sometimes even 3 out of 4 BOS for VP lock. Sometimes we have not even had SCs or skirmish!! Its happening for destro too but all the other night as soon as we capped a zone the next zones PVE bar was maxed out allowing us to literally swarm and cap via VP before any destro could even must out of their WC. Its going both ways but it seems like a bug to me. For a more pointed look for T4 WBs as it relates to the family. I know I do not try and lead its a headache and for anyone who has not lead a push in T4 you have to understand the shear amount of chat traffic tells, WB, party, guild, region and realm chat that leaders are shifting through. As a counter to that: Dags, Greg, Blocked, Araian and others that lead. I would suggest that you not shoulder the full load. I know you guys designate assistants in WB when posting in alliance chat or region about WB spots don't have them send YOU tells but your assitant or assistants who will have to be watching out for tells more than worried about leading. I am sure there are many fine soldiers in the family willing to assist in this matter. Like Greg said in his post he's fighting leading and updating stuff for the alliance at the same time. Vent does help no question but for those that don't wish to use it, or can't, may in fact be very good if not teh best secondary assistants since they will be more prone to keep a weather eye on the chat tab. This goes both ways to if you are not a leader but feel you can be logician behind command then you ahve to step up as well. Its kinda thankless and its a bit of a headache but leaders know and if you run with the smae group enough they will know how vital you are to teh effort as well. Wall of text done. Take it all with a grain of salt it is game after all."

Hey Guys, Faireach, I'm sure Greg would not ignore you. He doesn't do that kind of thing. I'm quite certain that if he saw your message he would have gotten you in. I understand your frustrations with Tier 4, and honestly I'm debating whether we should even be in Tier 4 myself. While we are getting closer to ever to Stage 2 we are also killing what remains of our destro evening population. With Feared organizing 2 city pushes a week destro is going to continue to thin out until their non-existant. Tetharel, I'm really sorry your first 2 raids have been snuffed by fast flips of IC. I do hope you realize that neither week was my doing. I did not even promote in region for the flips and I barely got our warband in zone for the lock to get the renown before it locked. Once IC Flips there is No oRvR anymore. That is why I called it when I did. Theres nowhere I can take multiple warbands. However we did have an abundance of people who could use to unlock their superior fragments and get us some practice taking down Adell. As I've explained in the past the City siege is built around killing Adell which is Greater (Sentinel, Conq Gear Req) Warded. There's 2 ways about going about the city. 1 sit on a bo for an hour or fight the big boss himself. We will never see stage 2 by sitting on the bo's. To see stage 2 you have to kill adell a total of 6 times meanwhile not losing the other instances. We got him twice last night. Now to the both of you, after the city reset I reformed us to try to give those of you that did come out some oRvR action. We ended up taking 10 keeps, locking 8 zones and I left the field with all the keeps in our favor. I explained to those in the field that IF they flip over to IC oRvR ends for 1.5 Hours. So they can either Flip the city and do nothing for 1.5 hours or continue to oRvR in the rvr lakes. Guess what the non-leaded pug's did? Yup they flipped IC. Fact is that even when we pushed Caledor the first time and I only took 1 of the 2 keeps to prevent them from flipping we still had a warband worth of people hit Hatreds against my orders. They would have taken it if it wern't for destruction showing up. Fact is when Im leading much of what im doing is giving the illusion of control. Many will follow me because it's a solid plan, but most will follow the renown train. They could give a care less about anyone or anything so long as they get renown. To them a zone lock is worth not being able to do anything for an hour and a half. Not much I can do there. Keep in mind I am nobodies parent. I don't tell Gaiscioch or Tuatha how to play I surely can't tell others how to play. The good news is last night I had the chance to show Aarian and Clanorton how to drop Adell which means that shortly here we can have 2 warbands of alliance mates that can successfully drop adell. In that situation the first 2 groups can be sup+ wards and we can fill the last group with non-warded. However Non-warded are going to want to hang back out of aoe range or they'll spend a lot of time on the floor. My goal is to get 2 proficiant warbands that can drop adell on their own and lead those others in the zone to help drop him. If we can do that then we can bring 4 to 6 adell deaths to our side's victories and potentially see stage 2. This brings me to my last question. What would you have me do? These cities will flip with or without me. Should we say screw tier 4, start losing members of the family because were inactive in T4, or should we at least try to contribute something. I'm really lost on this one. The last major fallout we had in the Gaiscioch family was due to the lack of T4 events. I run 1 raid in each tier each week. I can not control where the field sits when 6:00 rolls around. If their locking the last zone there's not much I can do. Im open for suggestions. Please state them here. Options: - Stop doing Tier 4 - During IC Drop to Tier 3 or 2 - Keep running IC groups, splitting off into 2 warbands to drop adell with non-warded. - Your Suggestions Here

Hrm...sounds like I should be glad I've been busy the last few nights. I have enough issues with Bryg and T4. I think the stuff that went on the past two raids would have sent me over the edge...

Last night, the first push to IC probably couldn't have been stopped. I had been in IC three times over the weekend, and couldn't face it again... heh heh... Vengful put together a small group of folk from Armyn, and with some help from a couple more folk from Gaiscioch, we played around in LotD until the IC raid was over. We weren't real organized, but we had fun getting some EXP. After IC was over, we all came back to the mainland for the reformation of the T4 Trinity. I thought the second round of the evening last night went well, and Daghdre did his best to keep folk from flipping Caledor. I applaud your direction that kept people fighting in oRvR as long as possible. I know all of us that followed him to Thunder Mountain had a good time :) So, looking at your options (above)... our group a combination of options 2 & 3. We decided to PvE during the IC seige. However, I also believe that we DO need to experiment with taking down Adell, and I would like to be a part of that as well. If Tier 4 continues the way it has the last week, maybe the "mission statement" of the T4 Trinity raids could be adjusted - after all T4 is different from the other tiers. But, if they don't tighten up on the zone-flips, we could be in IC about 1/3 of the time, and I think that is going to wear everyone out... Just my two cents :)

Hey Bryg, Yeah both nights we began the night on the doorstep of IC. yesterday i barely had enough time to get our people in the right zone before it flipped. Orders on this IC craze right now. I even tried NOT to flip IC after the first IC flip yet the Freeminders thought it would be in everyones best interest to flip it anyways against my logical explanation. We did have some good times between the 2 IC's, took 10 keeps, locked 8 zones. I really look forward to the days of starting in KV again. This destro no-show style play is not helping either side right now. Theres just no rationalizing with freeminders. Their way is the only way.

Heh. Yeah well, you know what happens when you try to herd cats... I really do think what bugs me the worst about Stage 2 of the city pushes is that someone like myself wouldn't be able to join in all the reindeer games. I understand the idea of giving the "big kids" something of their own to accomplish. And I'm truly all for it. I just don't think it should be a city. *shrug*

Im actually drafting up a new city plan that im going to propose to Mythic. When it's done I really could use your guy's help to bump and kudo the turd nuggets out of it.

I would also like to add that Destro has to shoulder some of this balme as much as we do. They fielded 200 plus a few nights before and can on a regular basis get around 140 plus; however, they seem to not want of try to make a showing when Order fields its numbers and Vice Versa. It seems that many on both sides are literally city swapping. It has gotten silly either Destro has a ton of people online and Order just has to go lick its wounds or its teh other way around. /shrug

Sounds like avoidance, if you ask me. Did we move to the Cowardly Lion server?

Thanks and I do know tells can be missed easily and I didn't figure I was being intentionally snubbed. By the way I do have vent and usually have it on though have no working mic at present. And just so folks will know ... Tethariel is my brother. Our computers are on opposite sides of a long table so we share vent.

Ben and Greg, if I left a wrong impression that I thought either of you have anything to do with the problem that is frustrating me, let me eliminate that thought right now. You folks are great and I appreciate all you do for not only the guild and alliance but for ALL of Order and I truly mean that. I know you guys are not controlling the zone flips, etc. It is just that I have a problem with all of this on two levels. One is that, as Bryg mentioned, it is no fun to go into the city push knowing you are not going to be able to contribute because you don't have the gear for it. If my running back and forth between a door and a flag would actually help something it would be one matter but it does NOT. Secondly it is going to ultimately kill the game as those not already warded are not going to get warded. I already missed what was supposed to be an impromptu crypts run last Saturday night because the zerg was happening. And how long before scheduled events begin to be cancelled realmwide as people are too busy with the zerg? Anyway please don't feel guilty if I vent my frustrations with the game/server as it stands now. Ya know if I feel that I am the only one who has a complaint and everyone else is enjoying the game I will figure I am out of touch and will go play a different game or something. However, I know a goodly number who are not superior warded in this game have problems with the system as it now is. It would be great if we could fix it. And had I known the wb would be reformed I would have stayed online (as i need the renown to get the gear) but the announcement was that it was the end of the trinity raid, so I just logged altogether.

Ben, I've already said I don't have any answers. And other than briefly, after my first T4 raid, I haven't been peeved at you, or anyone else in the guild, for that matter. And as I said elsewhere, that was primarily for lack of information: I didn't know that was just "the nature of the beast" and there was little you or ANY individual could do to stem the tide or provide a more inclusive atmosphere. I thought I had sufficiently apologized for turning my peevishness in the wrong direction, but if not, let me try again: I'm sorry, Ben, for being "ouchy" toward you after that first T4 raid. That said, I'm very much upset with T4, at least on Badlands (and I doubt it's much different anywhere). Certain Personages (on both sides, and none that I'm aware of in the family) act like adolescents trying to get "lucky" for the first time, when it comes to city pushes: they're going to do it, regardless of consequences, and heaven help any who get in the way. Doesn't matter if it ends up destroying the game, they're going to Stage 2, and pushing their opponents' city 3 times a day, if that's what it takes, until they get what they're after. No patience, no concern for how it affects anyone else. For people like me, that leaves very little to do. As you say, Ben, nothing else happens, RvR-wise, in T4 while the city pushes are on. And with that happening every 3 hours, like clockwork, that doesn't leave much time inbetween for someone like me to be able to progress. Even if I log on and manage to find a WB doing anything in T4, it's not going to be very long at all before we're pushing/defending the city and all I have left to do is go in and be farmed (or get in an instance with no Destro and spend an hour and a half capping the same flag over and over), or stay out and PvE. None of those is a fun choice, for me. I'm just frustrated... but not with you or the guild. With Mythic, I suppose. I guess I shouldn't have commented in Fair's thread in the first place (after all, it was only peripherally the same subject in that we're both frustrated by the never-ending zerg). In the first place, high RR 40's shouldn't be in the same tier as a 32 like me--being part of a group of random strangers who can't be bothered to go to extra effort on my account, I'm mostly worthless in T4 RvR. Too many people can essentially one-shot me. Sure I can acquit myself against the occasional less than 40 I encounter; but I think Destro T4 lowbies must feel the same as I do... I don't see many of them. In the second place, Mythic should have provided SOMETHING lower level and not fully warded players could do during this whole time. Make some sort of objective that ONLY those of us who can't do the Big Boy parts of this (from both sides) can accomplish. And third, if we DO decide to go in and give it a go in spite of all that, make it so we don't feel like we're just hurting our team's chances of winning when we die over and over for very little to no gain. =\ So, as to what I want you to do... I have no answer, Ben. Continue on as you have been, I suppose. I just know that if T4 continues to be nothing but frustration with no sense that I can or will accomplish anything without mindlessly solo-killing the same handful of mobs over and over (and THEN lagging way behind in RR), I don't expect I'll continue playing much longer. After all, I could go back to WoW and do that. ;-) I have an idea all it would take is one good night in T4 to turn my opinion around... but there sure hasn't been one in the short while since I hit T4. And I can't imagine others like me, true newbies who are just now hitting T4, feel much differently than I do. But again, that's frustration with Mythic (and those who won't give the zerging periodic rests so some of us can at least catch up to participate), and not anything I guess you or the family can do anything to change. -Rick.

I'm one of the people who have a problem with the game as it stands right now in terms of T4. I really, really really dislike PvE in this game. I can go play WoW if I want to grind. But it's becoming clearer and clearer to me that if I don't, I'm spit outta luck as far as advancing anywhere. Now, maybe if I keep leveling Rane, it'd be different. Because let's face it - when a call for DPS goes out, it is VERY rare that I see "WH wanted". And when I mean rare, it's like spotting a Jackalope in Times Square. Especially one who's just 34/34. Suffice to say, I can feel and empathize with Teth and Fair. And as much as I hate to say this, WoW really DID have it right by putting people who had maxxed out their levels in their own tier for RvR. It just makes sense to me. Start at 40/40, and duke it out amongst folks who at least you have a shot against. I'm at the frustrated phase, and I really don't like it. So I can keep playing my ALTS, but I've put a lot of effort into Bryg, just to get the sinking feeling that maybe I should "delete/reroll" as something else because really, Bryg's useless.

» Edited on: 2010-01-18 13:32:19

Everyone in game that has a sense of what FUN is agrees with what is being said here. Demoralizing the other side to not wanting to play will kill this game and has killed this game. I have finally mustered up the time to start a new alt into the current realm of T4 and I agree it is painful. Garnted I am playing one of the easiest cheese classes in game (BW you know it's true : P ) I can't even nor do I want to imagine starting a melee class in this mess. Bryg, If the zerg is getting you down some tips. Go into zones that have been captured already with some friends cause you are going to find destro (mainly exPTers) there looking for smaller fights. Originally I was anti SCs when the game first came out but in light of the mindnumbing Zergs selective SCs are a good change of pace. Battle for Pragg is by far one of the better ones cause it plays a lot larger than it really is. If you are getting camped there are infact 3 ways out of the spawn and unlike many of the other SCs destro can not see which way you are really going. Take you friends sneak around and gank some people away from the campers. Also if you can run some of your lower toons along side 1-2 powerful ones it makes a big difference, a high level healer is best and a Tank if you can get it. I am not gonna make it sound less ignobale than it is but killing a level 40 WE/Choppa with my lvl 31 RR 30 BW cause I am being backed by a damn fine healing squad and jumping around the body doing Flame Breath feels damn good sometimes. Especially if they b-lined through others and ignored healers to kill the lowbie.

personaly here im bored as hell with the standard way of doing IC ,, aka sitting in a empty instance and just sitting on a flag for an hour ,,, i dont log into game to just sit on a flag and listen to all the whiners for a hour plus ,,, im to the point now that if order pushes IC and wants to try to get to stage 2 this way im just going to log an alt on ,,,,, THE EXCEPTION TO THAT is if we are doing adell ,, if im in a family WB and we are going in to do adell ill be there in the front lines every time ,, trying adell is fun and i really enjoy that,,,, now Ben asked for suggestion, i know many in the family have alts in lower teirs and do do orvr with them ,, for me personally i only do t4 rvr so the option of just switching to a alt and doing orvr in a lower teir just isint interesting to me and besides doing something like wouldnt work because every one on the t4 raid dosent have alts in the lower teir your going to so people would get left out... My suggestion would be is why not keep the t4 wb together and just move it over to the land of the dead ,, we can hunt destro ther do PQs and stuff like that till the city push is over then head back out to t4 to take keeps

I got absolutely no pleasure from watching some of my favorite PT Destro struggle mightily, only to be slaughtered by a bulldozer in the chicken coop... I fear that to continue T4 raids, with 5 warbands of coordinated Order and only 5-10 Destro attempting to stop us, will drive this server into the ground. The Gaiscioch is about family; not only the present enjoyment of our family, but the future of our family as well. We are too large to ignore the impact we have on the server’s health and I believe we also have an obligation to this server, to our Destro, to stay aware of the ebb and flow of power in T4 and adjust our activities accordingly. -- At this time I recommend we suspend T4 raids until Destro have had a chance to get back in the saddle. When T4 is imbalanced towards Order so heavily and/or during IC we should instead throw together impromptu dungeon runs. Gunbad & Bastion Stairs allow large groups in all but the boss lairs. For the 40’s there’s Crypts/Warpblades, LV, LotD tombs, or even ToVL. This will allow our family members continue to progress without driving Destro to ragequit.

Now THAT is a great plan Mystrii but then that is all stuff I need to do. However I suspect there are many that have not done all the instances.

Since I have an opinion about everything here is my $0.02: Mystrii is right that we may have to lay off on the T4 raids. Feared is already pushing Destro hard with their "Get to stage 2" campaign. The Trinity raid as an organized entity is just kicking them when they are down. That said...I hate PVE and I hate Destro (in a purely loving fashion of course). I do not intend to lay off them one bit on a personal level. I especially want to crush Pwn Shop under my boots whenever I get a shot at them (often the other way around in scenarios I might add). So, yes to laying off an organized T4 push and a hearty "hell no!" to killing destro every chance I can get. :) P.S. I was told by a guildie that many destro were in T3 on Sunday evening. We really should go down there and kick them in nads a bit too. And if they go to T2 we can kill them there. And maybe then they'll hop on their main toons and fight in T4.

My 2 cents- I'm one of the few people that enjoys the PVE side as well as the RvR, but I've also not done the city enough times to be sick of it (I also always seem to end up in the instance destro are in- don't think I've ever been in a Destro-free instance). It seems to me that there are a number of things which can be done in T4 based on how many people we have on- 1. A WB enters the instance with the purpose of fighting destro if they're there, Adell if they're not 2. smaller groups stay outside of IC but in Maw/Chaos Wastes to keep the road from the CW warcamp to IC open for those who are interested. There have been times when destro forms fairly large groups in Maw to block entering players, and I'm sure if we stated this objective as an intention we could get some small-scale oRvR fights going. 3. For those interested, Gunbad/Bastion/City/LV/LotD lair/ToVL groups (with no obligation to continue once the siege is over).

Wow Aethilmar I been in the guild with you all this time and never knew you were so sadistic! Hehehe!

I understand that I, at my rank, have very little say in what the Leadership ultimately does. But Myst makes sense. It's like you always say in Vent, and region, Ben. "Let Destro take something. They need to have fun too." I think now is the time. Let whatever and whoever guilds/pugs/blah-blah's Order-side do whatever they need to do in T4 to make themselves happy. But we, as a Family and Alliance, need to step out. I think we, as Leaders, need to pull back from T4 and not only have fun in the T1-T3 range, but also contact Destro who really do feel the same way we do and just sort out some way of communicating with one another to say "Right, so, this sucks. T X, then?" I guess it's crossrealming...but I don't mean it that way...There has to be a better way than what we've got right now. Caveat - this is all "officially as a family". We can't stop what individuals do, because we all pay to play however we want to. But I think the Trinity needs to focus its efforts in teaching the next gen what it's actually like to have FUN in oRVR. As I said...my opinion, and a babbling, rambling one at that. Your mileage may vary.

Well looks like Destro got stage 2 last night, or early this morning sooooooo. You can expect the Order response to be redoubled into IC.

/shakes fist at late night Destro. Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps Destro just took a break this past weekend and things will be right as rain this upcoming week. Is it possible for us to balance the real time needs of T4 with scheduled raid events? As for the general idea, cross-realming or not, the RvR enjoyment of this sever relies heavily on both Destro and Order participation. I think every player has some responsibility to it. Ruthlos and I have always held back when we saw Destro in serious long-standing trouble. Though we would love to hit RR80, we are not willing to do so at the expense of our server. After all, what good would RR80 be if we had noone to destroy with our new powers? ;) I love the idea of clearing out Chaos Wastes. Ruthlos and I have been messing around with this for a couple weeks now. It is quite satisfying to take away gank groups easy button.

I know I'm new but I may be able to shed a little light with a "newbie" viewpoint. :) I still play WoW. (Don't hit me!) Not much since WAR but still do. I'm in a raiding guild. To do the top end game raids you need to be at a certain level in your gear, gear scores, dmg output, etc. That's just how it is. Noone wants to go in with a group that is destined to not succeed and rack up huge repair bills. (that's a far more serious issue than the prices for repairs here btw). Cinder is 24. Last night (or night before?) well anyhow, I got to run T4 content with the wbs. Did I expect to be allowed to go? Heck no. I was little help in reality but I had a BALL and enjoyed running with everyone and seeing new places. Still, when it was time to push into the destro city, I told Ben I would leave the raid to make room for someone who should be there. I had no problem doing that and went back to questing and leveling. That's just the way things are done. It is not a reflection of a lack of "family" feeling, its basic game mechanics. Rather than see things as being left out, it should be viewed as doing the best for the "family" and not taking a spot one doesn't really belong in yet. At any time if Ben had said can you leave so we can bring in a 40, I would have said sure and left. Sometimes being part of the family is putting the family's needs before your own. Ask not what your family can do for you, but what you can do for your family. As for the destro, I have to admit that I feel a bit bad for them. We really leave them no ability to strike back. Part of me... loves that. (snickers) But I think maybe limiting the nights we do that to them might not be such a bad idea. Still you have to know that if top end isn't being done, top levels will leave. It happens in EVERY game I've ever been in. The high levels will get bored if they know that every night is going to be about catering to lower levels. So you need to have a balance of both to make it fun for everyone. Here is an idea though. We are able to field a hella force with order. Did you all ever consider making a destro side guild and doing the same thing on that side? It would be fun and it would bolster the destros if they suddenly were able to do the same things back to order. They don't need to know it's "us". That way everyone stays and has fun on different nights. Cindermist