What is contribution all about in this or any other mmo?

Is contribution time? Is it smarts, strats, leetness? Is it crafting ingredients, crafted items?

The answer is all of the above. Every single one of these aspects should be valued in MMO's.

Some folks play only to get to 50 and start dungeons - then raid. Contrary to the very well written "johnny wanted things done too fast to his detriment" stories provided by this website - many folks (lots of 'em spouses or girlfriends) have been handed their xp and YES leadership experience via weekend long AP or CC runs.

Others quest and run dungeons in the normal plodding way - enduring horrible pugs etc. But choose not to craft. This is a viable alternative.

Others choose to embrace crafting for themselves and (very often) others. Leveling multiple toons slowly to gain crafting experience.

Let's look at a typical day in the life of a crafter with all 9 proffs.

Literally weeks and weeks of gathering and crafting to get to 300

THEN

At level 300 -- every day - supplies needed JUST for the master dailies -- 72 caramentium and /or 48 sagebrush, 8 kinetic bursts, 8 perpetual blurs, , 8 flickering crystals, 8 drakefoot SEEDS(1/12 drop rate from drakefoot), 16 basliliskweed, 16 bolts or spellspun or 16 soulhide leather.

Just on caramentium alone -- I have to crift about 16 hours a week to gather the needed ore for dailies -- or spend 2 hours a day gathering. The guild marketplace will only let me do 20 caramentium or sage brush each day if i choose that option -- that still leaves hours of gathering every day for my professions.

I have been a hard core raider (look it up Arraggonn in We Not ME on WoW Aggramar server --- and Aarwenn on Dark Prophecy EQ2 Lucan d'lere - then Crushbone[merge - not sure how it will show now]). I turned well meaning low level folks away for not being raid ready. I have been the hard ass. And I will tell you every time -- the crafters -- the good ones--- kick the pure raiders butt every time as far as pure time invested.

And in the end - isnt it about our time? I charge 30 bucks an hour for tutoring. In this country it's about time. Raiders may be working "smarter" in their opinion (remember I have 2 masters in engineering) but they are still spending less time than crafters. It's the time thats deserves the reward in my humble opinion. Or at the very least - recognize the time for what it is.

I have done both -- hard core raiding and crafting. Raiding made me crazy and used more of my brain. Crafting made me crazy and used more of my time. Which is more valuable? Both equally I say.

To have 9 crafts maxed means working on 3 characters. If you compared it to a raider keeping 3 characters raiding - 3 T2 dungeons a day, 6 to 9 2-3 hour sessions a week (say an average of 3 hours raiding a day). 3 Daily Raid Rifts. 3 sets of rep grinds for runes (some raiders have yet to finish one after 6 months). A PVP grind for foot runes for each character. 3-4 hours doing crafting rifts for raid consumables (as you won't earn enough contribution points to request them). Down time reading forums to make sure you are the best you can be. That's 8 hours a day at least on average. This is why most people stick to one raider (theough there are some that love raiding so much they have multiples). This is the extreme case, but I'm comparing it against an extreme crafting example. All to be in the best shape that you can be in for a raid so that you aren't wasting your own and 19 other people's times. Don't forget there are also people who are collectors, achievement junkies, explorers, PVPers, Rifters/social groupers, auction house speculaters, and presumably more that I have forgotten. It's good MMO design to have as many hooks as possible for people. Each person can put as much or as little time into what they enjoy in the game. In all cases except for the group based activities (raiding and possibly PVP) their decisions affect only themselves. Also this isn't a hard-core raiding guild. Casual raiding is, by its nature actually harder work for those that make things work. Raid Leaders don't get to pick and choose people based on performance, and can only encourage (not demand) people improve their performance. Sure they sometimes make hard cuts, but it's not as cutthroat as hard-core raiding. Some of the best raiders can be found in casual raid teams, as they learn not only how to maximise what they do, but also to cover and help other raiders - because except in extreme cases you just don't boot and replace people.

» Edited on: 2011-09-25 04:17:47

Exactly - I know the time commitment required for raiding - getting geared up. Yes it is a huge investment in time. All time invested is something that should be rewarded equally in a game. That is my point. It may only take a crafter seconds to whip you out a spirit weave bag, but there was a HUGE investment of time invested by that crafter to get to that point. And yes I do believe that crafter should get the same contribution for that bag as a person spending time in GSB should get. But that's my opinion - and we all know what they say about opinions. Time is time - reward it equally - whether its a dungeon, raid, or craft. By the way - I did a regular IT run for lowbies on defiant side - took 20 minutes. 50 points. Takes 3 hours of crifting to get that. Just sayin. I think crafters just want to feel that their effort is valued.

» Edited on: 2011-09-25 05:41:53

Allow me to point out something... Noone forced you to choose to be a crafter. Noone is forcing anyone to raid. these are decisions everyone makes regarding their time in a game. The truth is that those decisions are not anyone else's responsibility to make profitable. If its too much time, too much money, too much committment, then don't do it. But there is no use to all the comparing apples to oranges at the expense of all the other fruits. Deal with your own choices and stop whining so much. At the end of the day, the raw truth is, that it simply doesn't matter beyond whether you had fun doing it. The rest is your choice.

I craft and my reward is in giving not receiving, the site could not give me anything and I would still give, it is who and what I am. Have fun with what you do.

Nobody is discounting the efforts that crafters have to make. All I was pointing out is that for some of your recipes you were getting 400 - 500 FHP which is more than 99% of our 3 hour events that effect hundreds of people. One item is more than several events of leadership. Yes getting the pattern was hard work, making the items is hard work, but when you make the more points than a leader who is hurding 5 to 10 raid groups for 3 hours in multiple places on the map at the same time things just need a bit of adjustment. I had to bring things more in line. Now if your crafting just to get promotions in the family then your doing it for the wrong reason all together. You should be crafting #1 Because you enjoy it. #2 Because your helping your friends better prepare for the future. and Lastly #3 Because being a crafter is one of the easiest ways to meet people, make friends, and have several hours where you can hang out and socialize. Crafting is important, but so is leadership, and fellowship, and lore, and exploration. I am merely attempting to get them all on the same bar so that each type of play advances at the same pace. People keep throwing "fairness" at me and that's exactly what I'm aiming for and before this last change the fairness meter was severely off. Just remember, you should be doing it because you love doing it. Regardless of if you gain reward from it. Just think 3 months ago we didn't even have a marketplace at all. How many guilds in the world have anything remotely close. Be thankful we actually RECOGNIZE crafters as a viable progression in this family. Not a lot of guilds out there do. I love all you guys and I really am not trying to make life harder on you. I'm just trying to protect the best interests of the family and make sure that people are taking the time they need to learn how we operate before they become officer ranks. Does us no good to have someone who calls us a "Guild" in the officer ranks. When players make the transition to realizing we're a "Family" not a "Guild" is when we want people in those officer ranks.

I alternate between using the word guild and family because we are both, but I guess that make me no good. Edit: Okay I'm done with the drama, I'll find something else to do in my spare time /bow and have fun all.

» Edited on: 2011-09-25 11:20:57

Bentmer has done raiding sessions that were 3 hours and netted 5 points. He does it because he and the raiders enjoy it, not for points. You can game the system and run T1s if you want, they are pretty straightforward now. You seriously cannot talk about raiding and complain about how easy it is to roll T1s as your comparison to crafting rifts. Chalk and cheese. And yes, it is unfair that "open" dungeon and raid groups where someone is willing to lead and teach get the same amount of points as "closed" hand-picked dungeon and raid groups. I don't see how that can be changed. Some people do a lot for the guild simply by being a positive presence in guild chat. That goes unrewarded but it is probably the single best contribution you can give to a guild. It is hard to put values on things, and once you do, people start gaming them (I see it now in raids with people not rolling on upgrades "just in case". Do what makes you happy, encourage the activities that others do that make you happy (I love that there are always crafting rifts going on that I can hop into if I need to and I do appreciate it) and let the points fall where they may. You can't just do equal time - equal points, different people do things differently. Look at levelling - so many ways to 50, some fast, some slow, none more valid than any other. Besides, if this follows every other MMO, the raiders will eventually be the ones producing high level goods as the best recipes will drop from raids :-). Already happens with Runecrafter (and T2s).

A man may do an immense deal of good, if he does not care who gets the credit for it. ~Father Strickland Sorry, but this and all other arguments like it are silly, Ultimately no one forces you to play this or any other game. In the end every bit of time, contribution and effort involved is completely voluntary. We do things in service of others, I say this (not just directly to you Mira) to anyone reading, if your in the game of serving others for the credit and reputation, your in the wrong game. Service is about humility and sacrifice for the joy of giving and serving, not for being recognized and praised for doing it. Just my two cents.

» Edited on: 2011-09-25 16:24:55