Advice to dps rogues

After reading Opaline's last GSB thread which commented on Dps,
i would like to give following advice to all rogues(this advice also goes to me as i am still in the process of improving my Dps).The below specs are valid for 1.3 patch of rift.Go download a dps meter like the one posted in riftjunkies website and run it.when in game ,type /combatlog to start logging the dps.easy to use.If u have a warrior and rogue roles,play with warrior as this is now the best dps class in 1.3.they have boosted it.nerfed a little of mages.
step1
Get a proper spec:-
Following are the two best dps spec at the moment for rogues
Ranged rogues can play mixed sabo.invest 44 points in sab,20 in assassin and 2 in ranger.Do rotation of spike charges,then annihilation bomb to detonate and press detonate to remove the combo points .then shrapnel charges and detonate.Use bombs on two or more enemies if you think your targets will die before you can plant any charge and detonate.Use quick strike of ranger ability and then head shot finisher on single target when you think target will be dead before you can plant and detonate charge.here is the spec

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0MMTN.0VMcxcb.EV0fEbxkoRz.M

Use the ollowing buffs:-Lethal poison ,Virulent poison and poison malice.

Melee rogues can play mixed Blade dancer.invest 19 in blade dancer,26 in sab and 21 in assassin.Blade dancer's deadly dance is the best dps boosting buff.the purpose of the rotations used with this spec is to get a buff which will give u a 105 percent boost to charges.Now this is the best dps spec for rogues in 1.3 patch.A short recap of rotation is to get the deadly dance buff up with either spike charge placed five or puncture first with three spike charges and then use deadly strike finisher.You will a buff, u have like 5 seconds to plant two spike charges and detonate.Once you detonate the two spike charges ,your buff is replaced by another buff which will give 105 percent boost to any charge you apply.this new buff lasts 15 seconds.apply shrapnel charge five times and detonate.the buff will disappear.again reapply the deadly dance buff by using puncture + three spike charges and then deadly strike.and then two spike charges with detonate and shrapnel five times and detonate.repeat .Most important thing or rather problem with this tricky rotation is to take care as not to plant more than two charges to detonate.as soon as you apply three spike charges,the buff disappears and you have a failed rotation and loss of dps. here is the spec

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0MTMV.VV0cyb0o0o.0VRcxcb.VV0G0s

Use the following buffs :-Combat pose,Virulent poison and lethal poison


step2

Get good gear:-
Whenever you are equipping any item,check for the dps it is giving to you .Secondarily check hit points offered.Make it a habit.Trion guys have a bad habit of changing stats on items at times.DON'T TRUST the lists posted on internet.they are not updated.Usually patch notes will tell if trion has changed any stats.
Do dungeons,raid rifts frequently.
There is a best item for each slot.There is no one place to get all items.Some items will give you hit points while others not .Helmets and leggings give no hitpoints.Target 227 hitpoint to achieve.(200 hitpoint will give No missed attacks in Raid dungeons and rifts,227 will give u No Dodged attack.)If u have less than at least 200,u might be contributing to the failure of raids.Don't think of going above 227 max as there is absolutely no benefit .If you are thinking of going to hammer knell dungeon,then yes u need 325 hitpoints.I have never seen anybody so far that is fully geared for hammer knell.Only way to do hammer knell if u are so keen is to put hitpoint runes in every slot u find and try to reach around 300 but u will suffer a huge blow to your dps.it will cost u some 200 dps.

1.I have noticed that most of the people in our guild don't do Pvp.i think the general concept is that the best items are not in doing pvps.U need to reach rank 6 in pvp.when u r rank 6,u can buy stalker items.Equip helmet and legging of stalker.Put radiant accurate runes in the helmet and legging so u can have nearly every item boosting your hitpoint. these are the best dps items in helmet and leggings slot that u can get without doing any raids.

2.Do codex frequently to get whispered silence trinket.My advice is to do codex and battle of scion as they usually give faster rankings.If you don't like warfronts and want a change,Do the dailies of order of the eye.Most of the time you will be pveing and yet reach Rank 6 although a little slowly.

3.Do dungeons.they are easier and fun.do them with your guildies as there are many benefits.Grind expert AP,RD and DSM dungeon frequently.Get two blades of the architect from last boss in DSM.this is the best dps weapon with really nice boost to your hitpoints.Do expert AP to get two nice ring drops from majolic boss.Buy a rune carved bow from AH or grind Expert RD.the bow is a zone drop so kill and loot every mob to maximize chances of drop.This is the best dps bow which is also giving good boost to hitpoints.

4.Never miss an expert or raid rift although u might suck on rolling,hehehe.Raid rifts are a very good source of Essences.Don't waste your greater slot by putting a greater essence in it.Put a lesser essence in the greater slot.Aim for an essence which is givng a dps of 80 and above.U can collect these by rare drops from raid rifts or buy from sanctum vendor.Good essences with the vendors in sanctum
give u such a boost.
An important question rises .how to count dps of an item?
Simple:-
Total dps of an item is

always two times the dexterity on that item
always two times the attack points on that item
always equal to the strength on that item
always equal to the physical crit on that item

which means total damage per second given by any item is equal to 2 x (dexterity on that item+attack points on that item) + strength on that item + physical crit on that item.

In short 2(dex+AP)+strength+Physical crit=total dps from that item.It is the total dps of the item which is most important and not the individual stats.

Critical attack is a version of attack which is 150 percent of the normal attack.e.g. if one of your attack is about 250 damage,your critical attack will be 250+250+125=625 damage.U can see this attack on the left side of normal attack when u practice on dummy.yellow colored damage is the one done by your abilities while white attack is the one done by auto attack.auto attack is always much lower than abilities attack.i wish i could turn off the auto attack as at times when your attacks are critting,they are critting the white attacks which is not wanted.there is a specific percentage of all the attacks that will crit.now if your auto attack crits,u will lose the chance of critting the yellow attack(abilities attack)Please notice that assassin in ranged spec that i have posted is giving a 20 percent boost to your all crit damage..In terms of damage this is very significant.so in above case you will get 725 damage for a mere normal attack of 250.

3.Use plaques wisely.Don't blow it on ravager items.You don't wanna do that because in the end you will be grinding again t2 dungeons for plaques.Save yourself the trouble.Get marauder items from elder relics from beginning.go for chest piece first as it gives immediate boost to your dps.

So as you see a best dps gear is a mix of pvping and pveing.

step3
Runes:-
Put a rune on every item that u can use on.Never forget to visit quarter masters of different rift factions especially when u go a rank higher in notoriety.Nearly everyone of them will sell a rune that will give u a boost to your dex.Most important ones are order of mathos and dragon slayer.Don't go for the dailies of all these as you will be repping up with them doing their expert dungeons.use time u can find in collecting plaques and pvping.our guild needs you to pvp.


step4
Consumables:u can do potions,whetstones,scrolls,serums etc.go buy it from AH or ask in market place.Use these when u need an extra boost .people tend to use scrolls and serums in raids.
step 5
U should not die early.if u die earlier than others ,your dps will drop significantly.Incriminate is your life saver.Use it frequently and not only during start of the fight.Especially use incriminate when blowing shrapnel charges on an enemy in a mob of more than two.tanks have difficult time to keep aggro on such mobs.Use annihilation bombs especially if u see your tanks health is dropping to more than 50 percent.stunning the mob around the tank definitely helps the healer to bring up the hp.Unless u want a wipe with tank dying first.Also target the enemies on healers.by saving these two people in a group you are actually boosting your dps as u stay alive and your dps on the dps meter stays up.Keep Maximum distance from the target.i have seen ranged rogues standing close to the bosses or other enemies.these bosses have aoe damage.i have seen many ranged guys succumbing to the seeping damage.If you are a ranged rogue,Stay at maximum range.While implanting charges walk backwards ,facing the enemy.stop just before a distance where u cannot plant charges or do detonate.stay at that range and move forwards or backwards as enemy moves.

» Edited on: 2011-07-04 23:34:16

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» Edited on: 2011-07-11 19:42:32

Thanks Ray!

I'm interested in seeing actual spec's posted for what you listed. Like a visual so that people who are looking to this advice can see exactly what your talking about =)

Well, I use sabdancer (the melee spec) and used to use 44Sab. Just with some testing, I found that 1 AP = 1.557 crit. 1 Dex = 0.5AP + 1 crit. (DEX * 1.15 + Crit) + ((DEX * 1.15 + STR) / 2) + AP) * 1.557 = DPS Added. Roughly. Changes a bit with spec. EG the 1.15 modifier to dex is because sab gets 15% extra Dex. Critical mod for both specs is 1.7, 1.8 with cruel vengance up (it's always up).

Hmm.. I think I'll be doing some math with some of my gear. Oh Lord, that's a scary thought. I see numbers and my eyes roll back in my head. lol One thing that's always confused me. It's generally accepted that loading physical crit for rogues is the best way to go. Yet I noticed that most of the skills seem to mention their dmg based on attack power. Anyone ever try loading ap and seeing how their dps changes?

To be honest i personally don't like to go melee.Keep max distance from the enemy and do damage.Going near the enemies is almost always more damaging .i see rogues with good dps dying while going melee and then contibting nothing when dead.it puts extra burden on healers and other dps when u r dead.it is simple.sabo's best ablity is the max distance offered by devs.Use this advantage.that is why it is put first in spec points dstribution.

Thank you for taking the time to post this helpful information. As an up and comer I will be using this information to help me understand everything I need to do once I hit 50. I am just now learning dungeons as most of my experience in rift has been either solo or grouped with my brother (yeah I'm a guild noob). I am looking forward to many more nights of adventuring with my new family and learning just how deep this game really is. I will also start PVP since your post clearly shows how valuable some PVP items can be.

Ray, I'm confused and perhaps just all around uninformed, but with the Sabo spec, you take 3pts in poison potency. Do you get poison attachments from when you toss on a charge, or detonate it? Or is this primarily if you get a few melee shots in? I guess in my head since i don't know, hence my asking, wouldn't it be better spent in 3 more pts in Eagle Eye to get 3% more crit? Also again a side note, i see The Trapper taken, but not Time Bomb. How ofter to you see a need to trap in a raid, or if often, how many times is a CD an issue? Landmines, While i love the ability when i solo, again not sure about taking the point. If you like or have the need for trapping, would taking the pt from it away and putting it in Time Bomb, be better for dps? Sorry if this seems all in all noobish, but I'm just going by what I see and makes sense, but as I am aware, not everything always makes sense =) -BloodyMaw

In reference to your "range" is "better" statement I don't agree that that is necessarily true. I am assuming that you made this statement because RIFT hasn't really matured yet specifically concerning the mechanics of its boss fights. I know in that "other" game there were some boss fights that required a certain amount of range and the rest stood in melee range. If this game does go that route and adds that type of mechanic then your line of thinking goes right out the window. There are both advantages and disadvantages for playing either way. I know you made this statement as a personal preference (I like range also), there may come a point down the road that may challenge that preference. Thanks for putting in the time to educate the family we appreciate it Ray!

yes you get poison damage from sabo charges.it's weird but true.No need to go melee to get benefit of the poison damage from charges.I would recommend to use the same spec. it will not effect your overall damage if you put one point in time bomb ability instead of trapper.personally i find it difficult to go and push time bomb ability since u cannot macro it and you lose 2 to 3 seconds every time you go push the time bomb button which might suffer your other necessary rotations. i like to keep land mines.i like the knock back ability .it might save my life when tank loses aggro on non elite mobs in t1 and t2 which does happen on regular basis.so when i find that a tank is finding difficult to keep aggro on mobs,i like to cover myself with landmines and try to live another few seconds which might mean difference between life and death.Best time to plant time bomb is when tank is about to go pull.this is aoe attack.use it if you are sure that your tank will be able to keep aggro on the mob that has this bomb implanted on.There is a cool down on incriminate and you cannot use it every time you aggro the mob.

Reply to lothrich .Your melee dps is average until you get the buff up which says that your charges will have 105 percent damage boosted.It is more time consuming to get this buff up on single and multiple elites as well as non elite mobs in case of t1,t2 and raid rifts.The reason is simple.The mob is dead before u can put the deadly dance buff up and do damage.Now one way of handling this problem is to use in dungeons where there are mobs in close proximity and tank is moving faster from one mob to another so you have enough time to do put the shrapnel charges before the buff fades.Well in case of raids this melee dps might work if u are ultra careful not to get in front of the enemy.So to make the story short I would recommend melee dps for all single targets who have an hp of about 50 k or above if u can keep yourself alive.I would recommend to use ranged spec on trash while melee spec on on a good number of bosses in t1 and t2.

These posts trouble me. especially the comment that "2 builds are valid for 1.3" That's ridiculous and demeaning to some people. I am not being combative in anyway or impugning Ray here. However, the simple fact of the matter that you do NOT always have to be at the top of a DPS meter to succeed. I do grant that there are some encounters, like the Boss in CC-e that DPS race is an absolute must, but not all. Does this mean I will be an outcast if I play my 51 MM / 15 Sin? When I know the Sozu build of a Ranger will out DPS me by about 80 - 100 DPS? I absolutely hate pet classes and ones like in Rift that are so reliant on them. It is my prerogative and love others that use em'. When I see posts like this it brings the cookie cutter mentality and takes all the joy out of having such a dynamic system in the game. Now I enjoy Ray and did a GP run with him the other night, the dude has skills, so please I beg do not misinterpret my post, this is not a flame to him. I've seen some very unique builds that may have taken a bit longer to drop a mob, but through the understanding of their own unique builds have succeeded. Ray, I love ya man, just wanted to say my piece, dont hate me for it :)

enOehT, hi mate having a good time?You are absolutely right.Don't bother yourself with dps.We play games to have good time.The thread is only for rogues who want an advice to improve their dps.If you feel comfortable with a spec,that's enough.people should have fun with whatever spec they like.Personally i like to play with assassin and leveled my character with it.It was so much fun.So when i am relaxing like in pvp,i don't use these high dps specs.Guess what?i use ninja spec.I love to teleport around.i use a mixture of rift stalker and assassin.It is so much fun when i suddenly vanish from inside a group of defiants and appear the top of a cliff using memory ability of rift stalker.i use shadow attacks and appear from the back. So you are right.

There are at least 5 viable builds. Those with sabo will have Incriminate, which is great for helping a tank hold aggro. So for starting players I recommend 44sab/20Sin/2rng. It's very easy, and does pretty good damage. Ranged Ranger - Sozu's Ranger/MM/Sin http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?191485-Sozu-s-PvE-Ranger-Guide-1.2-REVISED Melee Ranger - Hoko's spec http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?218920-The-Hoko-spec-2.0-for-maximum-1-button-pwnage! or http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?222512-The-Hoko-3.0-spec-for-when-Sabodancer-gets-nerfed-(2056dps) Ranged Sab - 44Sab/20Sin/2Rng http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?riftstc=1MTMN.yVMcEbxkkRz.0VMcxcb.M Melee Sab - SabDancer http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0MTMV.VV0cyb0o0o.0VRcxcb.VV0G0s Melee BD/Sin/NB - TriSpec (tons of minor variations) http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0MMVi.0Vkcxob.Vf0Azsoo0b.VhxzhoR Beyond that, not much is going to be competitive (At this time, with high-end gear. 1.3 patch). The 5 above all scale well with gear, many other specs that work with low gear won't scale properly. The "bible" is a pretty good compilation of tons of info http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?215707-Rogue-PvE-Bible-Updated-for-1.3 Some people have fun doing less damage. Some have fun when they win. Many people have trouble with the idea that there are times when the two are mutually exclusive. When doing progression content, the first group will probably be left out, since being non-optimal leads to not winning. Once an instance is on farm the suboptimal builds become viable, since gear and player experience start to matter more. Suboptimal builds can be fun. But in many cases you DO need to be reasonably well on the DPS meter to succeed. I have a 44MM/22Sin build that sustains about 600 DPS self-buffed-no-consumables on dummy with my gear (700 in a group). Plenty for most T2 fights, enough burst in PVP (it's a PVP build, had it since I saw eradicate on the PTS notes), but not something I use in groups (much, sometimes there's no other purge). Sabdancer wins there, since it does 800 to the dummy and about 1k in a group (with living energy/fervor, it's far more energy starved than the MM build).

He actually said "Following are the two best dps spec at the moment for rogues " That is a fact. He did never say "you had to play this build" to be successful. He said they produce the highest DPS.... that is it. You took it out of context.

I agree with enOehT overall though. I got some random cryptic message from Kogga today about rogues on raids not doing enough dps on Johlen. He posted a spec in his in game email for Hoko's spec. I've already been running Hoko's for a week now and doing 800 sustained on a dummy self buffed and 900-1000 raid buffed. But alot of these progression fights you don't get to sit there behind the mob not moving so you can crank out 1000dps. You might be lucky to see 700-800 with movement and pauses taken into account as a rogue with Hoko. I think for a family-friendly, casual guild, that people are taking this way too seriously. Bentmers group killed Johlen in blues and random T1 and T2 gear. Its the mechanics of Stage 4 that is killing us. Not gear and specs. So I think people need to tone it down on harping on rogues for DPS. We had nearly 10K raid dps last weekend. More than enough for progressing through GSB. If people insist on making this a job or a chore to raid then it no longer becomes fun. I understand raiding can be frustrating, I have been raiding since EQ1 came out and done most every MMO since then. So I know it takes teamwork + time + skill to complete. But some people like Kumster last raid were degrading to people not putting out 900dps as a rogue. I simply will not put up with that kind of crappy attitude. I'd rather leave and enjoy doing T2's and PVP if that kind of condescending attitude is allowed towards fellow guildies. So thank you for the original thought of this thread and helping rogues in general see what specs can pump out 800 plus DPS. But the attitude of some folks needs a self-check because what Fog said about attitude towards fellow guildies is what destroys guilds. Not the raiding content.

"I simply will not put up with that kind of crappy attitude. I'd rather leave and enjoy doing T2's and PVP if that kind of condescending attitude is allowed towards fellow guildies." -Kriggles This is exactly why I don't raids or do dungeons. It is a game and I don't mind people taking it seriously - but to tell someone they aren't doing a "good enough" job just isn't a "good" thing. We got on a guildie a week or so back during a guild event because his cleric didn't have a "healer" spec. I was like WTF - we tell people to have fun and play the way they want - then complain to a guy because he didn't have a healer spec. I know he asked what he could do to help out because he felt a little useless being low level and all - but there were people that actually told him "as a cleric you have to have a healer spec". But - play the way you want ... "yeah", I thought, "right." There is a lot a rogue can do that doesn't do DPS that aids the raid or group. A Sab can plant charges that debuff armor - that stun for 5 secs - that slow - and are just as viable as doing extra DPS. Debuffing armor lets everyone - even the tank do more DPS. Stunning the boss lets the healers take a breath and dot heals have a chance to tick. Marksman have many of the same skills - so just parsing DPS isn't the end all - be all. My armor debuff may have actually let you do more DPS and look better in the eyes of those parsing - and made me look worse - I don't care if we make it through the encounter - but if you're gooing to call me out on it - we have an issue. As Kriggles points out - many times it is the mechanics of the encounter that let us lose. There are many builds that debuff - including some of the clerics - as well as spells that let other people do more damage for 15 secs or so. When I play my cleric (which has no healer build) in group events, I use a lot of debuff spells since they seem to stick while my dps is "resisted". But if I can stack a dot on the mob and debuff him so that others can do more dps - or I throw a shield over someone to protect them from damage or cuse the mob so they do less damage - then I feel I contribute. I guess the only point I am really trying to make - DPS isn't the end all - be all of a persons role - so shutting someone down because they don't meet some sort of "standard" may not be fair. ... and if DPS is the only way I am going to be judged - then I would just as soon not be judged. But, as Kriggle says - giving people advice is a nice thought - so the intent of the post hasn't gone unnoticed by me.

» Edited on: 2011-07-11 16:05:13

For those who can't tell, I find min/maxing to be fun. So if I want to try to max my DPS I will enjoy it. Not everyone finds min/maxing fun. If it's not needed for the content, and you don't find it fun, DON'T MIN/MAX. In AP-e the last boss has a damage reflect shield. If no one else can purge it I'll take the 200DPS hit and use my MM PVP spec to get eradicate. Sure, I no longer top the meter, but I provide essential utility. I am still useful. "Alternate" specs are fine until they become a hindrance to you and your group. I could take a RS/Bard build as a DPS in a dungeon, but the cost (wipes from pulling aggro off the tank, terrible DPS) would not outweigh the benefits (it's damn fun to teleport around playing a lute). For those who don't mind theorycraft and care about getting an AP:Crit ratio that's right for their spec you can calculate it. Damage = (Base + AP * APCoeff) * CritRate * CritMod Where Base includes the contribution of weapon damage, AP is your AP, APCoeff is the AP coefficient for that ability, CritRate is your crit rate, and CritMod is your crit mod (generally 1.5 or 1.8 (with assassin and cruel vengeance up) or 1.7 (cruel vengeance dropped off). So we have a function Damage of 2 variables AP and CritRate. To find the best improvement at any point we want a gradient vector to tell us what to add (or just use it as a ∆AP:∆Crit ratio). So let's take the partial derivatives of Damage with respect to AP and Crit: ∂Damage/∂AP = APCoeff * CritMod * Crit Rate ∂Damage/∂Cr = (AP * APCoeff + Base)*CritMod Gradient Damage(AP, CritRate) = (APCoeff * CritMod * Crit Rate , (AP * APCoeff + Base) * CritMod) Which tells you which direction to move on a graph of Damage(AP,Crit) to maximize damage. The magnitude of that vector is the infinitesimal increase in damage. Now do that for all skills in your rotation and find the weighted average vector with the % of your rotation's damage done by each skill as the weights to find the vector by which to gain a maximal damage increase. Since AP and crit are your axes the slope of the vector is the ratio. Since it's an infinitesimal vector anyway you don't have to bother taking the derivative.

» Edited on: 2011-07-11 22:02:57

Agreed.I think more than Dps is the learning of fight Mechanics and the ability to adjust accordingly.This takes time.The more you try a boss ,the better you get.

Wow.. I get confused just reading. I really want to be the best Rogue that I can be and want to learn and improve myself. I saw the directions to go to riftjunkies and download something to check your dps. But if you download it how do you read it. Im really clueless to these things. The thing that really got me interested in this game was the fact that you didn't have to be a cookie cutter avatar. In other words with all the souls to choose from and combine you could be one of a kind if you wanted to. To me to say if you want to be the best you have to be one of these two. Well I will try my darnest to find another one that is different from them that can blow them out of the water. I am unique in my mind (laughs) and maybe in others too. My husband and son got me started in gaming in 1999 they have since left after following me around to different games and trying to keep up with me. I am too competitive for them it seems. So I do my thing .. You see I want to be the best I can be at my terms. I think this game is so different one day before one patch this is the way to go and the next its another way and well I am still trying to figure out how to make enough money to keep changing my souls to get them right. I have 3 set ups now one Ranger, marksman, sabo... another Bard, marksman, sabo Another Marksman, ranger sabo. I like doing damage from a distance. I have a sister (alt) warrior that can pound away up close and personal. I want to learn but is there a class on Rogue 101 that I can read to figure out how to understand the mathamatics of this all. I guess my best way is to say what a wise man told me once. "Its not the destination its the Journey" so everyone smell the roses and enjoy the game dont make it a job I had one for over 40 years and no thanks. Try to be patient with others and help them to understand the schematics in their language.

People will recruit you if you know what you can do with your character.If you cannot deliver goods to the raid,you will not get invited until the raids go on farming status from progression status.If you join a raid as dps rogue,then u gotta do your best in all means to dps.Now if you don't like a particular spec and wanna stick to whatever you want to do in raids,trust me people will talk and you will not gel well in that raid.Don't you wanna enjoy end game content?When you reach 50 and have done everything except raids ,then you start to get bored.You start to look for a challenge and that's when you start thinking to either quit rift or do raiding.To know your character in depth is to master your skills.Trion is not kind.Do you think they will start another dungeon and add more quests to keep the interest of guys who like to play casually.Learn from the behavior of devs.If you claim that you love to get on rift to have good time by not doing raids but chatting on main channel.Again you are fooling yourself.Still if you wanna stay "Unique",Be my guest.Just don't post here what you like to do in game.I am not holding anybody from the neck and telling them to adopt instructions from my post otherwise they suck incredibly in dps.Am I?No.Some people like rift while others love it.Got my point?

No actually, I don't get your point Ray. I've played dozens of MMO's and in casual guilds, like this one, people enjoy the game for much more than "raiding". Me personally, I like to raid. I know I need to do good DPS as a DPS rogue. That is a given. However, when people post condescending things in raid chat or call out people for not living up to some asinine standard I get a little upset because as Fog said we should be working together and keeping the "blades out, not in".

» Edited on: 2011-07-12 17:53:54

"Don't you wanna enjoy end game content?When you reach 50 and have done everything except raids ,then you start to get bored.You start to look for a challenge and that's when you start thinking to either quit rift or do raiding." And that, Ray, is exactly why I decided to quit playing. I'm not interested in the 'grind' - I'm interested in the fun. Trion (and every other MMO to my knowledge) cater to the punishing grind crowd much more than I'd prefer. I suppose in their minds they don't have a choice - you have to minimize content development costs while maximizing the return on what content you DO add. The answer? Raids that drop maybe 5-6 pieces of upgrade gear per run, hard locks to limit you to 1 run per week, and progression ladders.

This post is starting to derail here. What started as an informative post has devolved a little into something that is getting precariously close to violating our blades out, not in policy. Ray - While your original post had some useful tips for people, some of your posts seem to insinuate that those who do not follow your preferred play style are somehow doing something wrong. This is a casual guild and the vast majority of our members do not have the time or inclination to play the game the way you do. Please be respectful to their play styles as you would wish they would be to yours. We also happen to be on a RP server, so there are quite a few people who login just to chat. Whether it is crafting or artifact hunting or various other activities, many people find quite a bit of enjoyment out of this game without raiding. Kriggles - I encourage you to speak with your raid leader about your problems that you were experiencing. Hopefully then these problems will be resolved and will not occur in the future. However, I think it is a good idea to not single out people in a public post as you then start to become guilty of violating the same blades out, not in policy that you accused them of doing. I understand your frustrations and I myself have never prescribed to the idea of negative motivation. I also believe that everybody should respect each other in the raid group. We all succeed together and we fail together. There is no place to assign blame on others. We all play this game for fun and a raid dungeon should be no different. Raiding does not have to be a grind. It does not have to be stressful or negative. It should be fun for those who participate, otherwise why do it at all? Lastly, I encourage everyone to experiment with their class and find something that they enjoy doing. I think that's the most important factor. But try also to keep an open mind to other roles and specs, you may find something new that appeals to you that much more. Now let's all gather for a group hug! :)

"There is a lot a rogue can do that doesn't do DPS that aids the raid or group. A Sab can plant charges that debuff armor - that stun for 5 secs - that slow - and are just as viable as doing extra DPS. Debuffing armor lets everyone - even the tank do more DPS. Stunning the boss lets the healers take a breath and dot heals have a chance to tick. " That's nice, but none of those work. Bosses can't be stunnned or slowed, and the armour debuff is overwritten by the one warriors put out. "Marksman have many of the same skills - so just parsing DPS isn't the end all - be all. My armor debuff may have actually let you do more DPS and look better in the eyes of those parsing - and made me look worse - I don't care if we make it through the encounter - but if you're gooing to call me out on it - we have an issue. As Kriggles points out - many times it is the mechanics of the encounter that let us lose. " Very true. Like overwriting debuffs. EG Ranger's (not MM. MM has only deaden and eradicate as raid utility) piercing shot is worse than warrior's debuff (at less than fully talented) and yet overwrites it. This decreases overall raid damage, and is thus bad. DPS isn't the be-all and end-all of encounters, but it is important. Using the right abilities at the right time (say, not wasting 6 GCDs using concussion charges) is very important. Some DPS roles bring more utility than others. Sometimes that utility outweighs the drop in DPS, other times it doesn't. Progression and Farm are very, very different. During progression all raid members have to do their absolute best to down the boss, and the raid will often wipe multiple times. Most game companies try to tune encounters so that it will take 8 hours or so of work to down each boss. On Farm status people have better gear, so underperforming roles become more acceptable. If a raid of 20 people (12 of which are DPS) needs 12,000 DPS to down a boss it will be impossible to kill the boss if the DPS players average under 1000 DPS each. But if 10 of them are averaging 1200 DPS you could bring 2 more pure utility players to the raid, or have 2 DPS use less efficient specs, etc. Every encounter has a minimum damage tanked, utility used, healing done, and damage done. A lack in any element (and in special things, such as movement) will lead to failure. "Lastly, I encourage everyone to experiment with their class and find something that they enjoy doing. I think that's the most important factor." -- Bentmer Very much correct. I hate pet classes. I'd probably do about the same, if not better DPS going with Hoko's 2.0 spec, but I can't stand it. So I use the "harder" rotation of sabdancer and end up doing better. There are 5 main DPS rogue specs, and a few alternates (the assassin bleeder spec in testing now looks promising), so finding an enjoyable one shouldn't be hard. I have to say I like to see reasoning behind decisions. EG "I took 2 points out of Remote Clipping and put them in Blast Charge because I never need the range but occasionally need to do damage without any AOE. Instant damage is also helpful when Shrapnel Charge or Spike Charge would not have time to get all their DOT ticks." vs "Well, I like the icon better."

There seems to be a group within the guild that isn't as casual as others. News shocker lol. Keep pounding away at that content I will be there soon hopefully!

We have a large guild and many diverse play styles. We also need to refrain from being overly judgemental with our remarks about each other's preferences. For example: "These specs are recommended for those wishing to achieve top end DPS for their class" "These specs are needed to achieve top DPS and should be used for everybody" The first is informative, the second is more opinion and assumes a particular play style is best. Another example: "Being able to maximize your dps is beneficial to the raid group because it allows a larger margin of error in many boss encounters. Being flexible with your roles allows for greater flexibility in a raid group." "If you don't do top dps in a raid then you will be shunned like a leper and stones will be thrown at you by the villagers. Also if you can't perform certain roles in your class, raids will never let you in." We should try to present our advice in a way that does not interject too much opinion. When a person's opinion is presented as fact, that is when we start getting into arguments, which I'd prefer we not do. Especially over a game that we play for enjoyment. Like I said, this thread contains some very useful information on achieving high end DPS with certain specs. We just need to separate info from opinion is all.

Sai, thanks - you presented some good info. I tend to stay away from pets except in a small group or solo. I also don't especially like Sab because of the set-up time and I end up losing some charges although I think it is fun to run with a pet - I like big bangs. I tend to run with MM in larger groups - as I don't particularly like melee although I do have a melee build to experiment with. If snyone has a suggestion on MM as the main - even if it is a 51 point spec with the sniper pedestal for the 30% increase - I'm listening - errr - reading. Thanks.

MM is currently regarded as a PVP-only soul by pretty much all the theorycrafters. The only "viable" ranged builds (where viable is 1500DPS+ with raid gear) that I have seen parses for are Sozu's ranger (Up to 1700) and 44Sab (Up to about 1700). I've not seen any MM parses above about 1200 DPS. And that was from the PTS in hammerknell gear. I, too want to have a raid-viable MM spec. I do archery IRL, it's fun, I'd love to see it in game. But a 20%-60% DPS loss is just not acceptable. (Hoko's and Sabdancer parse above 2k for several people on live.) Even going from melee to ranged w/pet is a 15% DPS loss. Very damaging, but offset by ease-of-use and increased uptime actually attacking the boss. IMO -5-10% is an acceptable loss for no gain. -10-15% is acceptable with an increase in utility. Anything more and you're sabotaging yourself and possibly your team. Also, sab has no setup time. If you're setting up your charges in combat you're doing it wrong. Do that pre-pull, and use incriminate+detonate immediately after pull. If you're loosing charges you're also doing it wrong. Anticipate how long the mob will live, if <21 seconds swap from spike & shrap to just shrap, if <11 go to blasts. If you detonated 5 blasts you messed up. (Basically, 5x spike take 6s to apply+det and 15s of dot time. Shrap is 6s setup and 5s dot. Blast is 2-5s setup and no dot. Time it so none of your DOTS get clipped.) That's mostly applicable to trash, not bosses. Bosses you can afford to lose a bit of tail-end DPS, as once they die you don't have to switch to another target quickly. Also, NOT ALL SPECS SCALE EQUALLY. Bard doesn't scale with gear. At all (well, a tiny bit. +1000 AP ~= +25 healing per cadence tick). (Changing in 1.4). A 50 bard in greens is just as good as one in full relic HK gear. Sabdancer scales poorly with AP. They get about 0.25 damage per AP overall. So a lower level player with less AP, or a crit-stacking player, will do better with sabdancer than a player with all epics/relics and AP out the wazzoo. Hoko's Melee Ranger scales excellently with AP, and terribly with crit. It takes rather high gear levels to do well because of the AP needed.

That's a real shame on MM. I shoot in real life - did Cowboy action shooting for many years (FYI if you don't know - you have to use pistols, rifle, shotgun from the old west period of time) That's why I am a little uspset there aren't better rifles in the game - bows seem to dominate. So.... even with a 51 point spec and using the 30% increase from the pedestal - it falls short? Sad... I'm going to keep playing with it though - I do love it in PvP. Thanks for the updated info.

I use a 44MM/22'Sin for PVP, and it comes in useful in some T2s. Last boss in AP-e, for example. If no one else can dispel the reflect shield then the extra movement ability and eradicate make MM better than Sabdancer. Of course, that's a movement fight/heal check, not a DPS check. One time everyone but me (Bard), the tank, and the healer died. We still killed the guy, it just took a while. So yeah. For DPS fights, max your DPS. For fights where DPS is just a nice way to get it done faster, maxing your utility may be better. Then again taking 10 minutes to down 1 boss because you have 500 total DPS isn't so great.

I'm leveling my rogue now and found this thread very interesting. Obviously at this stage I'm not playing endgame content and min/maxing. But I do want to try to optimize my damage and utility while leveling so I can best learn my character's abilities. I love playing saboteur, so I had a look at your sab/assassin build. I see someone else's post where the poison applies to charges (strange!). My question is about Serrated Blades and Murderous Intent. Are these talents for situations where you are in melee range (or because nothing more suitable was available at that talent tier)? Or do charges and bombs count as physical damage?

I never had time to say good bye to the guild.Overall i had good time.Learned quite a bit with you guys.Since I had already left the guild at the time of posting of this comment,i can give some honest ,matter of fact statement.Gaiscioch is a huge Non homogeneous guild.I say Heterogeneous because The guild has unspoken-of Sub division into three or more groups.The casual guys,Bentemer and Opaline grp.You cannot enjoy endgame content since the groups are already full.Obviously and understandably it is not Grp fault. I am moving to another guild which is newish and do need a rogue like me in their 20 man raids.In short i am moving to move myself from reserves list to a permanent member list but in a Hardcore guild.

44sab is for ranged fights, and there serrated blades goes to waste. Charges count as poisons, and do physical damage. So murderous intent AND poison potency both work. Sabdancer is a melee spec. It is not for ranged fights.

@Ray: no one prevented you from starting your own grp, so instead of crying about people that are proactive and making their own luck / way, maybe you yourself should have made a grp that can slay dragons. Good luck in your new guild.

Thanks Sai, that is the info I was looking for. I do understand the intent of the post is for endgame dps, so I am not the target audience (yet!). For my leveling purposes I think I will trade the 3 wasted points in Serrated Blades for Cloak and Dagger. I can see advantages to using a paralyzing strike and taking less damage (and temporarily increasing my own damage) if enemies get in range.

Good luck Ray and I hope you find what you are looking for in your new guild. We aren't for everyone and wish you the best in your future gaming. Now... that said... If I was someone who was good at writing guides and helps I would sure hesitate to post it on this site, guild mates or not. For the few of you who understood the intention of the op and looked past minor word usages...BRAVO! You probably benefitted as much as I did from Ray's efforts. Thank you for that. For the rest of you... Seriously??? Put your big girl panties on and stop nitpicking. Noone will ever say things the way you want them said, but at least Ray TRIED to help out the guild. What have some of you done besides find fault with another's efforts? If that build is not for you, fine; but that does not give you any rights to get on this forum and tear any poster down. EVER. Take the information, sift it and find what works for you. Appreciate the fact that someone took the time to write out all that information to try to help.