Please Read: Regarding Dungeons & The Family

Hello Everyone,
I wanted to take a moment to talk to you about Dungeons. While the Gaiscioch Family welcomes all skill levels of players, from all walks of life, without question... The Dungeons in this game are not so kind.

90% of the problems I have fielded in this game which have popped up in the family have come from Dungeons. These are mean creatures who can turn even the best of friends against each other. Please know this going into them.

YES people will get frustrated, YES these are not easy. Please note that if you plan to do the T1/T2 Dungeons, and Raid Dungeons, you will not be able to be casual about it. The game simply isn't designed that way. It's nothing against you, it's not something the Family made up. This is simply a case that you cant cook a meal with a hammer and a piece of string. You've got to bring the right tools to the job at hand. This is the way Trion built the game.

I want to ask you all if you Participate in Expert Dungeons to please be mindful of what is required to survive in each one. Please leave defensive attitudes at the door. Realize these will be frustrating, there will be death, there will be stress. You will be expected to play your part. You will be offered advise, and if the leader of the event asks you to spec a certain way or do a certain thing, be ready to adjust as needed. These fights are algorithms that require a variety of different things. What works for one wont work for another. As we progress we will have lots of experience on how to beat each boss, but until then you are a pioneer and you need to keep your frustration to a minimum.

Remember your Kin, did not design this dungeon. They did not build this fight. To know victory you must suffer defeat. Learn from each fight, share what you learned. We are only as strong as our knowledge pool. I will build an engine to make these run as smoothly as possible, however it doesn't matter how much we as a family explain it, If you come into the fight with a attitude of stone and will not budge from your perspective you will not have success in these dungeons. You MUST come to the fight ready to LISTEN, ADJUST, and be PATIENT. I can not stress this enough. What you think is an awesome build might be awesome for one fight but not another.

If you do not enjoy stressful gameplay or are not willing to adapt to your groups needs. Please I ask you to wait for the Family Raid Rift nights to gain your high level gear. Don't force yourself to do something that you not only will not enjoy, you will not be successful, and you will just throw fire on tank of gasoline.

We as a family need to keep the hostilities to minimum. Within our own groups and in PuG groups. Realize that we are the face of the family and any time where you lash out on a group leaves a negative vibe about our family which travels to all of the people that those group mates know and speak to. It may seem like only 5 people, but those 5 people are attached to guilds, they have friends, and when ever the Gaiscioch come up in conversation we will be known by your actions. Make certain those actions are benevolent and honorable.

IF you read this and say "Thats a load of horse S..." please do all of us a favor and go find a family or guild which is better suited for you to play in. We are not it.

I thank you all for reading this over and ask that you /sign this and make any comments you might have. I don't want to isolate people or outcast people but for us to be successful in these dungeons we need people willing to adapt. The "I know what Im doing" attitudes are killing us and are causing serious issues within the family. If you "Know" what your doing then Lead the event, the leader dictates how the dungeon is played. Please listen to your leader and make the adjustments they ask you to make. I will do what I can to help but there is no free loading in this game and we all need to be ready to adjust as needed.


» Edited on: 2011-05-02 11:28:57

Read and signed.

OY! Here here!

I'm not at this level yet, but /read and /signed. Completely agree with the need for patience and the willingness to adapt.

/signed I know I'm not perfect, and when I'm running experts I am always open to hearing suggestions as to how I can improve my performance (so wait... you're NOT supposed to stand in the fire????)

very Informative and fair statement Fog

/signed Soon after joining Gaiscioch, there was a problem in one of the guild groups in a regular dungeon, that caused me to have some bad feelings, but the rest of us pulled together and completed that dungeon anyway after one of the guild members was booted from the group. Yes, we actually had to boot a member from the group for many reasons, not the least of which was he accepted an invite to leave the group mid-run for another group from tuatha running the same dungeon, so we had to replace him. Another guild member was actually saying in tuatha chat and in guild chat that the reason we were not successful initially was because someone in our group must suck. Even though this was true to some extent (it turned out that after that other member left our group we had no more problems and the run went smoothly) I found it offensive that someone would say that about their own guildmates, and in public! I reminded him of the swords out not in code of conduct and later had a private talk with him where we basically hashed it out, but I mention this here to demonstrate that these sorts of problems occur in the regular level dungeons as well. I am not going to be level 50 for a while due to my playstyle, but I do agree that while this is a game, high level dungeons and raids are not casual. So, while low-level dungeons can have a casual atmosphere, it is also important to pay attention, do your part, and follow instructions! A smooth run is much more entertaining than a run that struggles and fails. I also want to bring up a situation which may be causing some of the hard feelings people have about the dungeon runs. Several people have complained that they sign up for the event on the website but the raid leader does not invite them and their slot is filled by someone else. Then when they send a tell to the leader they are not given an explanation. This is understandably frustrating and I have had members tell me "this is why I don't group with the guild most of the time". Because they have an easier time getting dungeon groups outside of the guild without suffering the frustration of clearing their schedule to log in at a specific time and having their slot filled even though they were ready to go. Gaiscioch has an inclusion policy do we not? I understand some people want to group with the same people over and over again but I would ask they do not list these runs on the event board unless anyone in the guild who qualifies by level, class and gear is to be included, in the order they signed up in. Otherwise, what is the point in being in a large social-casual guild if you are only going to run in a clique and exclude people? (This is one of the main reasons I left my previous guild. It was too hard trying to break into the elitist cliques.) I am not accusing anyone of doing this, but I am saying this is how it appears to some members, when no other explanation is given to them for being excluded for no apparent reason. Overall I have had 99% of the time really good experiences with dungeon runs even when we fail, because of the positive and supportive camaraderie of the members of this guild.

» Edited on: 2011-05-02 13:02:10

/read /read and /signed

Jeez...I take a little study break and ya'll go gettin' all rowdy! I have been uber-casual to date...but with school out of the way soon, I look forward to finding my rhythm, making the hike to 50 and stressing over boss fights & soul specs instead of final exams! "...every little thing is gonna be alright..." -Bob Marley

/signed

read and /signed. I'm trying to learn more about my role, because the endgame is very different in many ways from the leveling game. What worked early on doesn't work so well later on and the dungeons require several different builds to be optimal - I still need to learn all the builds necessary and I definitely need to save for the upcoming 5th role.

/read and signed

First of all, /read /signed Second of all, I'll address the complaints about the public events since I'm sure they are referring to myself. I want to say to start off that I'm disappointed that people who have a problem with something do not come and address me personally. I have repeatedly said that I am here to answer all questions and problems. It's unfortunate that I must do this way but that's how it goes I guess. 1> I have public dungeon events that ran 3 times a week. Not once have I ever refused anybody. Sometimes, those people were already in another dungeon at start time and we proceeded without them. If somebody was ever left out then they should come forward and tell me because I've never had a tell from anyone to that effect. 2> The raid event in question was the Raid Rift event that was 2 weeks ago. There was a post and an event posted on the calendar at the same time. It was stated explicitly that there were limited slots available (20) and that it was filling up very quickly. The post stood up for over a week. Every single person who signed up before the day of the event got into the group. I personally checked the roster up to a few hours before the raid. By that time, the raid group had been filled. Some people signed up last minute and those people did not get in. At the same time, someone in the raid advertised in the guild that there were slots available when there were in fact none. At the time, I was inundated with tells from about 20 people regarding the raid and other subjects. I also had to start the raid before we wasted anymore time. Again, the event was up for over a week and everyone who signed up before the day of the event got their spot reserved. I can understand why people felt left out but there were only 20 spots and they were all filled well before they signed up. Nor can I control when someone falsely advertises in guild that there are spots open when in fact there were none. If any of those people had sent me a tell then I would have explained the circumstances to them. Nobody ever did and I did not have the time to search everyone out since the raid rift was underway. I am disappointed that this could not have been handled personally between those who felt left out and myself. I'm also sad to see how my efforts to include as many people possible in raids and expert dungeons has resulted in bitterness and rancor. That was not the intention. Anyways, if anybody has any questions or complaints, they can always send me a tell. I'd appreciate the benefit of the doubt rather than complaining to the others about it.

/read and signed.

/read /signed I have told several people lately that have attempted to recruit me for dungeons that I hate them - yes - I hate Dungeons. One reason is what is stated in the post - people expect way too much out of the group - it is a game and I play it to have fun. I am more than willing to comply with whatever the dungeon leader wishes and typically state what my specs are (healer or dps - and even tell them I am not a main healer if they want me to heal) since I don't wish to disappoint anyone or let the group down. I have only run a couple of dungeons with the "late night crowd" (Mijjah is awesome) and they are a fantastic group of people. Hpwever I had to take some down time and they out leveled me (which isn't hard since I do a lot of exploring). I find it works out best to watch what people are asking for when they want to do dungeons - and for the people requesting a spot to be honest with their builds and especially their capabilities. If you aren't accepted because you are a novice or your build doesn't fit in, "Don't be uspset or defensive" there will come a time for you and you will learn. And if you are accepted be willing to follow orders. Also - don't attempt to takeover the group - someone else is running it - be a good sport and follow what they want you to do. If they ask for advice - then give advice, not orders.

» Edited on: 2011-05-02 16:23:05

@Bentmer, This wasn't about you at all actually bud :)

/read /signed Although dungeons aren't my thing (too stressful)... Raid rifts sound intriguing though... I'd rather by Riftin' or climbing Treaa

/read /signed. I pay 15.00 a month to have fun and interact with people. I work 50 hrs a week to get stressed out at work..

/read /signed Much good info here. Some parts of the game are designed to be casual some are not. It is a very important distinction.

@ Bentmer I was relating what was said openly in vent by others several times and not just for one specific event or raid leader on one specific day. I felt if these complaints were being stated openly and more often lately that there is some kind of issue arising here that we should as a guild try to address so that there are no hard feelings amongst us. I felt that Fog's post was a good opportunity to bring it up. I would like to suggest in response to Bentmer's post that members try to sign up early and not at the last minute. Raid leaders have alot on their plate (I know from experience) during set-up and may miss a tell or two. (I have suggested to the devs multiple times they add a louder ding). I have no idea what prompted Fog's original post.

I'm not much of a dungeon crawler... but /signed and understood :)

/signed I've only been to a couple regular dungeons, so my dungeon experience is quite limited in Rift.

/signed I have yet to run a dungeon, but I look forward to it eventually.

Since the day we started Dungeons have plagued the family. Every fight that players have had has typically happened because of dungeons. Every outside complaint i get is often because of dungeons. A lot of people are caught thinking that dungeons are easy mode and others can just drag you through them without effort on their part and that type of thinking isnt helpful to anyone. I wanted to bring official light to the subject rather than have everyone assume.

Read & Signed. New to the family but totally have seen what your describing in other games :)

/signed My apologies if the GSB parses I posted started a firestorm. This was not my intent. I personally use them to see how I can make my character better.

/signed You also have to consider loot, that's HUGE in a dungeon. If someone needs on something and someone feels that they deserve it more. That can create bad feelings very easily, I know for a fact that someone won't group with me at all anymore because of an incident such as this. It's over I have moved but this particular guild mate holds a grudge. Tis truly unfortunate.

I just have to say thanks to Bentmer - without the dungeon crawls he has led (and more often than not had to take me by the hand and talk me through) I wouldn't be trying to lead dungeon groups at all and I certainly wouldn't be as interested in dungeons. It's amazing how much leadership he's shown just by being willing to bring a less experienced person in as the tank in as uncompromising a place as a t1 dungeon.

I would also add that responsibility for enjoying this or any game rests solely on the shoulders of each individual. Nobody should be relying on Fog or any other family member to resolve their personal problems for them. Communicate with each other. I led a "casual raiding" guild in WoW for about three years and this was by far our greatest source of internal conflict. Some people simply would not communicate with each other. Many times I was approached with an issue between two or more members and I would ask, "Have you talked about this with them?" Often the response was "No." I have no doubt that Fog and the rest of family leadership is here for us should we need them. However, they deserve to be able to log in and enjoy the game during their limited play time just as much as the rest of us. The most treasured things that still remain of my time in WoW are the friendships and the fond memories of epic battles and ridiculous antics. Not some weapon or armor piece made of pixels and purple text.

/sign

/read and /signed This sort of stuff is why I seldom run dungeons... not that I don't enjoy them (it's generally one of the more enjoyable things to do), but rather that I'm not necessarily the most coordinated fellow, and know from experience that there are those who lose patience with me long before I get comfortable enough with a new set of actions to do it and think at the same time. :-D It's not at all that I don't listen to instruction (though I suppose it could occasionally appear that way); if I'm in a dungeon, I'm doing my best to comply with the leader... but that might not be good enough for some, under some circumstances. That said, I, too, would like to say thanks to Bentmer. He has always gone out of his way to carefully state that everyone in the guild is welcome on his dungeon/raid events. And nearest I can tell, he really means that! ;-) Not to mention that if there's an ounce of impatience in the man, it's very well hidden. :-) He might yet get me past some of the scars of raiding in The Game That Shall Not Be Named and make a Rift Raider out of me.

Els, you don't give yourself enough credit buddy. :) While you aren't a grizzled veteran of dungeons quite yet, you've come a very long way since our first foray into normal AP lol. And it's easy to take someone along who is so eager to learn and willing to listen. Same thing applies to you Teth, you are always welcome in my dungeon group/raid group. I've never seen this supposed lack of coordination on your part, you've always done everything that's been asked of you and more. Fairy, I'm not trying to kill the messenger here. I am thankful that you brought it up actually because I'd have never known otherwise. But using my Sherlock Holmes investigative handbook, I can tell you that there have been no other raid events planned on the website or calendar except the raid rift event. (Not counting the Telara Saga or Family night events) If the complaints are over signing up and not being invited etc, then I see no other possibility. The reason I am even pointing this out is to dispel the notion that there have been many events planned in the past where people were ignored or excluded despite having signed up for it on the website. That's simply not true. There has been one event. And there were extenuating circumstances involved. I want people to know that if there is an event planned and it states that everyone is welcome, that it indeed means that everybody is welcome. At least until the available slots are filled. Anyways, again I'm not trying to make anyone look bad or anything like that. I just want everyone to know that there isn't a widespread exclusion policy going on. At least with respect to the raid and dungeon events that I have planned in the past. Raids and expert dungeons are scary enough without people thinking they're not even welcome in certain groups. If anyone has questions, concerns, opinions, etc then I am always free to answer them. It doesn't matter to me if you're lvl 10 or lvl 50, I'll always be there to help and you're not wasting my time. Really. P.S. Els, the prestigious Elsimer 'Take one for the team' Award aka the Kenny Award still is named after you despite Pyrefly's best efforts in getting himself killed. lol.

» Edited on: 2011-05-03 02:11:57

Just wait till you ask me to run three times clockwise, then twice counter-clockwise, around the boss, hopping on one foot and doing the /chicken emote, all the while dodging his Bolts of Ennui, then! :-D And then, after 37 tries, when I accidentally manage to pull that off, I'll be patting myself on the back while I just stand there in the fire moving into the next phase of the fight. ;-) I don't want to give the impression I'm a klutz (I'm really not), but I'm, um, not a youngster and my eye/hand coordination reflects that status (or to put it more simply, I'm an old fart with old-fart reflexes ;-) ). Where it really gets frustrating to the rest of the group is any Mario Brothers stuff (hopping across a series of rocks over deadly swamp gas, or such). But hey, give me a spot where I can (at least mostly) stand still and do my thang, I'm your man! :-D

@Bentmer I appreciate what you are saying. I remember one person asking you during an event if you could always invite them to your group during family events because they liked your leadership style and you telling them no, that you invite first come first served. So I am aware of your wonderful leadership philosophy. (I have even given you a token of valor before.) I would suggest to everyone that making a separate chat tab for tells-only for reference might benefit our ability to communicate with each other. I would sell my little dwarf soul to a defiant for a louder tell ding! Anyway the whole purpose of a forum is to discuss things and sort them out, which we are doing, which is a good thing. And I agree with Fog, based on my own long experience in mmo's (over a decade), that dungeons will turn people against each other. It kind of fascinates me how seriously people take them. I am usually giggling most of the time and going wow! did you see that! Another thing I would like to suggest is that more people take up the formation of dungeon groups! Really, it is simply a matter of if you have run it a few times and payed attention, and read a guide, then you can lead it. Also, if you form a group, you get to decide just how serious or hardcore or casual you want the group to be, and tell the members in advance. Just let everyone know if it is your first time leading that dungeon and people will offer advice as you go. Basically what I am saying is hook up with like-minded adventurers and you don't have to have a stressful experience. Dungeons can be very fun. I have led all kinds of dungeons from easy-mode to the most difficult content like the Watcher (in lotro). If I had merely waited for someone else to form the group and then tried to get a position, how long would I have waited or never have gotten to experience the content? You cannot just rely on one or two guildmates in a guild this size to get you ALL through all the content. So please give it a try. What is the worst thing that can happen? You wipe? So what? Happens all the time. You'll do better next time. And now it it time for a guild hug ... *hugs guild*

/signed I have been through several T1/T2s with guild groups and have had a great if sometimes bloody time. I have some observations comments to add: 1. we have alot of rogues. I highly encourage any rogues to have a full Bard spec, a ranged spec and a spec that you really like. A tank spec is good if you have the gear and the tempermet to do it. Some parties have had 3 rogues (one had 4) so Rift is better than most, but we have to be flexible with what we can do so we can help the group out no matter the composition. 2. We have some great tanks and healers. Even in the seperimental boss fights i have been really impressed with the way they have helped each other through fights, and the discussions on how to beat the boss with different groups and different specs. 3. Be ready to change specs between fights. 4. enjoy the teamwork, even if you wipe 10 times on a boss. Sometimes the scutlebutt is not complete. 5. Vent is good 6. listen to the group. I do not mind getting told to stand here if it will help. This kind of thing is not personal, it is people helping you understand the fight.

/signed I have been mostly afk from this game for the past month. My daughter has been playing more and more. Not even close to the Epic Dungeon or T1/T2 stuff as of yet she just grind-ed to 38 to get some gear crafted and such :P I would much rather see more PVP Group 5-mans being made to do warfronts. Take that 5-man group that wants to do dungeon run and see if they can even win 1 WF out of 5 and then maybe you can gauge if they have some skill to try Expert Dungeon RUN :P

Right now, home life and work has me occupied for the most part and as a result I am but a lowly level 25 rogue. In the past I was a top-tier raider/Pvper in EQ1, WoW, Conan, WAR and even LotRo, so I understand all the dynamics and undercurrents involved in a raid/tiered dungeon group. My concerns are two-fold. First, the role that meters/meter lists play and secondly, what will happen over time. With regards to the meters, my concern is how they are used. Using a dps/healing meter for personal improvement is fine in my eyes, and as long as it is kept private and discreet, interaction involving these is tolerable. Once these lists/rankings are posted or discussed in a public manner, the behavior crosses the line into unacceptable to me. If these are used to "qualify" a person for inclusion, that also is behavior that is wrong in my eyes. What happens over time also is a concern of mine. What I mean by this, is people's actions and attitudes concerning older/"farm" status content always in my experience denigrates. People over time get bored with that content, or the content no longer offers them rewards or any of a number of different behaviors start to rear their ugly head and even in the very best circumstances and within the best groups/guilds there becomes a divide. For the first time in my gaming life, I am not an elite - this does not change my approach or my mental attitude towards content, but it does mean that I most likely will only see content once its "newness" and "charm" has worn off. For the first time in my gaming life, I will be dealing with a situation where most likely I will be the "undergeared scrub" and I will be seeing content for the first time that others have been through tens, if not hundreds of times before. it will be interesting to see just how far I advance in this game's content and what I end up accomplishing.

/read /signed I don't enjoy dungeon runs so have chosen not to participate in that aspect of the game. So far there's been lots of other things to do to keep me from getting bored. My only concern is being able to gear up.

I am still very low level due to lack of play time, but I agree with everything you have said on this subject. /signed

Read and signed.

Fairy, I remember the first day you joined this guild and participated in the squirrel race. We had no idea you were new, we just assumed that you were somebody's alt hahaha. Anyways, this is a healthy discourse on this matter and I much prefer talking about it in public than having issues fester in private. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. There is a major update coming in a weeks time. This will have a huge impact on expert dungeons. The changes will make them MUCH easier than before. The current difficulty setting was more exclusive than inclusive, meaning not everyone could do it really. This will change come 1.2. So if you are having troubles right now, in a week's time you will find the going much smoother. I encourage people who haven't had a chance to experience the T1 or T2 dungeons yet to go ahead and give it a try before they are uhhh nerfed, retuned, etc. It is quite the accomplishment to do Realm of the Fae in expert mode or Deepstrike Mines (currently the hardest T2 by a mile) in expert mode at their current state. Come 1.2, it will be a mere shadow of it's current difficulty. If you think you are up for the challenge then go for it! The reward in just pride alone will be worth it in my opinion. :)

Read and signed!

read & signed

Read and signed also.

/read/ signed

/read /signed My personal opinion is that you can do a lot yourself to bring your best to an instance. Read up on it (takes about 3 minutes), be prepared to listen and adapt your playstyle if required, be able to realise it was you who messed up if it was and chat to the group about how you can fix it in a non- confrontational manner, have fun! Bringing your A game to a tier instance always results in you being invited back, because you have contributed to the success of the team and tried your hardest :) Nobody minds teaching and helping those who try and have a positive attitude.

Read/agree/will comply

Posting my own /signed to this. I am re-rolling here from another server where I am a 'raiding' player and I fully understand the challenges these encounters can bring to even the most skilled teams. I think the flexibility that Rift offers every class to play a variety of roles can be challenging to master when forming successful raids and dungeon teams - but that is also a huge part of Rift's charm and attraction. It takes a lot of time and practice to fine tune a good team. My advice? Bring cookies. Cookies make everything more fun!

read/signed/ will comply, also just wanted to thank the whole Family for how welcome and Patience everybody's been with me-- since i am a newbie and haven't played any other PC game games and Rift is my first Game this has been a great experience for my first gaming Exp, and an awesome guild Exp. Thank You all for be such a great guild family!!