'Rift' between PvE & PvP players?

Thread: Rift is a PvP game even on PvE servers (I feel people should be aware of this)

The above thread on the official Rift forums is over 100 pages now, and there are other threads showing antagonism between those who don't want to have PvP forced upon then on PvE servers and those who disagree. The core of the issue is that players can take out the other faction's NPCs (questgivers, merchants, portals etc.) This is considered griefing by some, while others say they should just engage in PvP to end this (which assumes PvE players want to PvP whenever their enemies wish them to). Add to this extreme level differences, and it looks like there is a big difference in opinion on this issue. I'm guessing that Trion will do something about this before release, we will see.

Overall, this big debate has brought out some ugly infighting in the Rift community, which I'm sorry to see. It does point out the fact that game mechanics are very important, because what can be done generally will be done online. From little things can come very large differences. Trion has a track record of being responsive; it'll be interesting to see what their solution is.

Thanks for the link, that's alot of pages lol. This is one of those lowest common denominator problems. We would all like to think that nobody would be so antisocial as to purposely destroy quest hubs to ruin other people's experiences. But, I'm sure that somebody will do just that and ruin it for everyone else. Personally, I've run into far more instances where NPC rift denizens have overrun quest givers than players (especially higher level ones) griefing. Then again, I'm sitting on the Alpha server where the population size is small and controlled. For myself, I find it quite fun and refreshing that you have to be on alert for things like random groups of mobs coming down the road to beat you down or even a patrol of Defiant hunting you down. It makes things exciting for me. Now if someone who was way higher level than myself, were to follow me around and purposely kill me over and over, I'd probably not find that quite as exciting. ;0 The quest NPC's respawn pretty fast so I've never had a problem with them being missing. And I don't see what Trion could do without affecting how the whole 'rifts attacking towns' mechanic works. I hope they don't do anything to mess that up either. If I were Trion, I'd probably let the populace police themselves. By that I mean that each faction will protect their players by sending out their own high level players to take down the invaders. Only if this proves unsuccessful (because of population imbalance or indifference) then I'd try to fix something. I'm still hopeful that whichever server we choose, that everybody there will have fun playing together and get along. Teehee. ;)

Most PVPers would agree that camping anything just for grief/gank reasons is lame and not respected my 95% of PVPers. Dealing with it from a dev point of view will be the issue. NPC guards like in Warhammer? Maybe. In EQ2 we would shout out in general or zone chat that xxx gankers/griefers were here and we are in need of help. Usually that drew a sizable force to squash the bad guys and even occasionally turned into some good open pvp because both sides rallied reinforcements. I know the crowd who pretty much hates PVP in any form for any reason. I sympathize with you guys, however, I am hoping that enough White hat boyscout type PVPers like myself can swoop in and help you guys when being camped or griefed. Call Rift-Guardian 911, we will protect and serve! ;)

I hope it won't be as much of a problem as they seem to think. We could also look at it as an opportunity for some community service and/or roleplaying. After all, guardians are supposed to defend telara right? If you find people who are killing your quest NPCs or being an annoyance, call in the cavalry. It could turn into a cool battle between the factions. I don't really like pvp, but I could really get behind pvping to help other people.

I like where this thread is going. Back in pre-Trammel UO, I remember the so-called "community policing" that went on. I was a member of a roleplaying alliance, in the guild called the Knights of Yew. We weren't PvP oriented, but everyone in that game at that time had to be to some extent. We called them PKs back then, "Player Killers". They were definitely the bad guys, even though very few of them roleplayed. The Shadowclan roleplayed orcs, and they were awesome, but they hardly ever PKed. In any case, yes, the community did band together to protect those who were set upon by PKs. That was part of what made the game fun, actually. There were no levels in that game, so it wasn't a question of being ganked by those who could one-shot you due to game mechanics. Perhaps that is the most important part to remember. *sigh* I think I'm rambling. Er, I'm sure of it, actually. (Pre-coffee posting is probably not advised.) Anyway, my point is, I love the idea of actually roleplaying "guardians". I think Ariel will probably do some shifts patrolling Silverwood even when she's max level, now that I think about it.

I think the vast majority of PvPers, PvEers, and everything thing in between are nice decent people. The problem is that in a community so large as Rift will be, there will always be a couple of rotten apples. And if said apples make things miserable for a few people who then take their displeasure to the forums, then things get blown out of proportion and Trion might feel the need to do something about it. I sincerely hope they do not. Most of those posts in that gigantic thread are in line with what we have all said. The community will police themselves and it's not that big of a deal. But the thread keeps going because there are a few extremists who just won't let it die. I hope they realize that whatever Trion would be forced to do to make them happy would inevitably RESTRICT the rest of us in some way.

I've been a PvPer my whole life since I joined the US Marines at the age of 17. But I've NEVER been a griefer, in fact I hate em. Back in those early days of UO that Ariel was talking about I was in a guild of Anti-PKers. We were the only Law north of Yew. We not only rallied to calls for help when others were being PKed, we even set up ambushes and set lowbies out as bait. If the PKers jumped our bait, we jumped them. Later, I came to understand that people who kill Player Killers are in fact killing players! So, we were PKers too, but we slept well at night cause we were doing it for great justice! BTW, both of my teenage daughters were early UO players/beta testers. One of them was a PK! She said it was more fun hunting other players than mobs. I remember meeting Ronald McDonald (the leader of the WTFmen guild who were notorias griefers) at a real life event. Ron was in fact a nice guy, he role played scum because that was more fun for him. I even started hanging out with some of his goons in game from time to time when they werent trying to disrupt events in our player run town. During town events, I tried to kill them and they tryed to kill me. They were role playing goons and I was role playing a town guard.

A very hot topic and there is not one but three over 100 posts threads, it's amazing. Some are a voice of reason, but at lot of people have strong opinions but few actual game experiences (at least in Rift). I actually do understand the PvE purists, some people probably have enough stress over their day or just the disposition to want a calm, undisturbed and controllable gameplay. I still wish they would just give it a chance and understand that fighting with a group can be a lot of fun even if you aren't an uber player. It's going to be PvP that stirs the game up and gives you something to talk about. The fear of ganking and griefing overshadows all, that probably needs some trust in the community and the developers, the game is still beta and we have the first "I'm going to quit my preorder!" posts. I haven't encountered gankers and giefers so far, though there was one stealther who jumped me, stunned me and killed me before I could do anything, I went back for some payback, got stunned and killed, again. I don't think I would have shrugged it off so easily without half a year of Warhammer under my belt.

People are people some people are nice others are not. Here is something we should think about as a guild. When we have griefers what are we going to do about them. Fog said it best that PVP on PVE servers is about choice and most of the time it's equal levels. I think there is nothing wrong with that. It's when whole guilds come out to control a zone just for fun sit back and laugh as the ruin others players game experience. If this happens we should go out and show them what players from an RVR game can do to them. I also thing that when you upgrade Sourcestones that they should get guards that upgrade as well. People will think twice about attacking a stone if there is a few lvl 50 elites around. If that doesn't work there is always Renny I'm sure he will go hunting. Just be sure to take Kavurn along with you. Always good to have some comic relief in your story Fog. hehe

» Edited on: 2011-02-02 02:00:08

If I'm understanding you correctly Falonarion, you are suggesting playing both factions on the same server? While we can do this during beta, it will not be the case when the game launches. To play both sides, same server will require 2 accounts and I know for me personally this is not something I'll be able to afford.

In my opinion, I still think this is being blown out of proportion. Rift invasions are constantly attacking quest hubs, but it's a small delay everytime I've run across it. As far griefers go, there are 2 solutions that I can see. One is to allow the opposing faction to basically 'protect' their turf. In such a low pop environment like Alpha then it's hard to do, but when Rift goes live I think population density will help fix the idea of the small griefing squads. The other solution is to not give the opposing faction any reason to stay in lower level questing areas. I think a debuff that's something like the chicken debuff you get in Warhammer would be pretty hilarious too. Or at least debuff their stats to a point where they might be the ones getting ganked. I'm not trying to trivialize people's experiences so far or anything. But I really don't think it's as bad as that huge thread is making it out to be. That thread is being driven by people who are taking really skewed positions and running with it. 90% of the other posts are by level headed people who are responding just like we are.

Rift announced some changes nearly everyone seems to love. :) http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?48008-PvP-PvE-Activity-Overlap/

Great fix. I think trion did the right thing.

@Zashyn, I don't think Trion has made a final decision yet on allowing one account to have characters in both factions one one account. Scott seems to think it's OK. We have it in both Alpha and Beta. In a few weeks we'll know if it's allowed in Head Start / Live.

Oh, you can have both sides on the same server? Never checked if this was possible! I know there are some possible downsides, but I think it would be nice to play all toons on the same server where you already know some names and guilds. (Even if you want to avoid fighting your friends and pick another Shard you might still meet them in the Warfronts.)

I don't see the problem with having toons on both sides in a PvE server. Maybe they won't allow it on a PvP server. I guess it depends alot on their long term plans for RvR and PvP. I should roll a Defiant, but I spend all my time on Rift playing with the souls on my Guardian characters lol.

I haven't done a whole lot of pvp yet in beta, but I think back to what happen in DAoC when they combined servers, people from crossrealming was a bad bad thing imo. I guess we will see how it plays out ?

There's only going to be 4 characters allowed per shard? I'm an altaholic, so this bodes badly for me, lol.

Deft because of the Roles system you don't really need to have more than one character of each class unless it's for RP purposes. Essentially each of your four characters can have four different archetypes. Four characters is more like 16 with this class system.

Well there is one drawback to only having 4 characters per server. How am I going to make enough pack-mule characters to carry all my loot? lol.

@ Bentmer - Finally! Someone who understands us misunderstood pack-rats *laughs* Good thing I'm not particularly fond of playing warriors so I have at least 1 banker if that limit comes to pass.

I don't know about this... Mac's given me grief from time to time......

Does the AH charge a listing fee if the item doesn't sell? Using the mail system is an expensive alternative for lowbie characters, but it is an option.

I just like making tons of characters and playing around with the character generator. I guess only having 4 alts will make me have to actually play the game. :P

» Edited on: 2011-02-04 14:49:00